How about a picture of the Panhard rod installation, both ends, and the spacer. The Panhard Rod is spaced aft of the axle in order to prevent any interference. If the Panhard Rod is properly installed, the swing tree you are using is not compatible. There is more than one configuration. You can move the Panhard rod farther aft, if necessary, for clearance. I have not had to do that on any of the cars I have worked on.
There are several permutations of rear axle configuration (including two different diff cases), that were installed on different cars other than the Spridget (the Minor is one, and it was built and sold here in the US all the way to '67), with a couple of different swing tree configurations. Evidently, one that you have adjusts the hand brake by moving the swing tree, rather than by adjusting the cable tension back at the axle mount. I can see how this might cause some problems. It is possible to have a suite of parts that wont work in this area.
As you can see in my photo albums, there is no such clearance problem, and the cars were built more than 30 years apart. The installations were identical, the axles were from a '65 and a '70.
Of the 5 cars I have seen, none have the problem your pictures show. All had the same type of swing tree and mount, and all were built from mid to late 60s Midgets. My RHD car was built from a '70. It was in all respects identical to my LHD car that used a '65 Spridget.
Handbrake issues...
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Handbrake issues...
One other thing you can do with the brake rod to gain a little clearance.
The rod can be bent forward slightly, crossing the Panhard Rod closer to the pivot at the axle. This eliminates any possibility of the rod touching the bar, as the brake rod and bar move together. You can put the bend starting about an inch from the attach point on the brake lever.
Once the long shocks are installed, it is easy to adjust the bar's clearance with the suspension in full droop.
With the long damper setup, the suspension is about mid travel on the dampers with the driver installed, a 7" ride height, with the corner weights set.
The rod can be bent forward slightly, crossing the Panhard Rod closer to the pivot at the axle. This eliminates any possibility of the rod touching the bar, as the brake rod and bar move together. You can put the bend starting about an inch from the attach point on the brake lever.
Once the long shocks are installed, it is easy to adjust the bar's clearance with the suspension in full droop.
With the long damper setup, the suspension is about mid travel on the dampers with the driver installed, a 7" ride height, with the corner weights set.
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Splat
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:12 am
Re: Handbrake issues...
Success.........
Just for the record, all the parts involved are Spridget originals with the exception of the handbrake bars, which are the two-piece modern replacements that are universally available from all the MG factors here in the UK. (If you're not familiar, with the original bars no longer available the replacements are threaded at the wheel end, the clevis screwing onto this, allowing a few millimeters of length-adjustment to each rod.)
My original balance lever (swingle tree/swinging tee) was screwed onto its carrier (pivot) which in turn was screwed onto the very end of the support's (bracket's) thread. This placed the balance lever as close to the Panhard rod as it was possible for it to be (see the first photo on the previous page) and resulted in unacceptable interference between the rod and the handbrake bars.
I removed my original to find that the carrier was rusted solid in place on the end of the thread. I'll have to apply a torch if I want to salvage it. So I cleaned up, re-painted and fitted the ebay replacement. This ebay replacement (original Spridget, just like my own) had the carrier screwed all the way down the support's thread, placing the balance lever as far from the Panhard rod as possible (see the first photo below).
Now a point worth noting.....
It states in the "build manual" (and has been repeated elsewhere) that the balance lever should be positioned front-to-back when in the off position. This is totally wrong. When viewed from above, standing behind the car and facing forward, the lever should be in approximately the 10 o'clock/4 o'clock position when the handbrake is off. If not then the springs within the drum brake assembly will not reset the handbrake mechanism when the handbrake is released. This is why the clevis on the end of the handbrake cable has a crescent-shaped notch in it, allowing it to sit snug against the balance lever when in the off position. (See the second photo below.) When the handbrake is applied, the lever approaches 12/6 o'clock, but shouldn't go over it.
The third photo shows the right-hand handbrake bar, kinked to clear the rod. Despite claims to the contrary, I've yet to see a photo of the assembly with this rod unbowed. Rather than an untidy bow, I marked the point at which it passes under the rod and placed three distinct kinks in it: one immediately after the balance lever, one at the marked cross-under point and one at the threaded end. At all axle articulations (lots of jacking and lots of vigorous bouncing by the pair of us
) there is no interference between the bar and the rod, the bar and the floor or the bar and the chassis upright immediately aft of the (long) right-hand shock. The handbrake goes from off to full-on in four clicks of the ratchet.
And just one further point. It was NOT NECESSARY to redrill either drum brake lever.
Of course, I'm sure that I've done this wrong, and I'm sure that someone will point out my incompetence quite soon.
Just for the record, all the parts involved are Spridget originals with the exception of the handbrake bars, which are the two-piece modern replacements that are universally available from all the MG factors here in the UK. (If you're not familiar, with the original bars no longer available the replacements are threaded at the wheel end, the clevis screwing onto this, allowing a few millimeters of length-adjustment to each rod.)
My original balance lever (swingle tree/swinging tee) was screwed onto its carrier (pivot) which in turn was screwed onto the very end of the support's (bracket's) thread. This placed the balance lever as close to the Panhard rod as it was possible for it to be (see the first photo on the previous page) and resulted in unacceptable interference between the rod and the handbrake bars.
I removed my original to find that the carrier was rusted solid in place on the end of the thread. I'll have to apply a torch if I want to salvage it. So I cleaned up, re-painted and fitted the ebay replacement. This ebay replacement (original Spridget, just like my own) had the carrier screwed all the way down the support's thread, placing the balance lever as far from the Panhard rod as possible (see the first photo below).
Now a point worth noting.....
It states in the "build manual" (and has been repeated elsewhere) that the balance lever should be positioned front-to-back when in the off position. This is totally wrong. When viewed from above, standing behind the car and facing forward, the lever should be in approximately the 10 o'clock/4 o'clock position when the handbrake is off. If not then the springs within the drum brake assembly will not reset the handbrake mechanism when the handbrake is released. This is why the clevis on the end of the handbrake cable has a crescent-shaped notch in it, allowing it to sit snug against the balance lever when in the off position. (See the second photo below.) When the handbrake is applied, the lever approaches 12/6 o'clock, but shouldn't go over it.
The third photo shows the right-hand handbrake bar, kinked to clear the rod. Despite claims to the contrary, I've yet to see a photo of the assembly with this rod unbowed. Rather than an untidy bow, I marked the point at which it passes under the rod and placed three distinct kinks in it: one immediately after the balance lever, one at the marked cross-under point and one at the threaded end. At all axle articulations (lots of jacking and lots of vigorous bouncing by the pair of us
) there is no interference between the bar and the rod, the bar and the floor or the bar and the chassis upright immediately aft of the (long) right-hand shock. The handbrake goes from off to full-on in four clicks of the ratchet.And just one further point. It was NOT NECESSARY to redrill either drum brake lever.
Of course, I'm sure that I've done this wrong, and I'm sure that someone will point out my incompetence quite soon.
- Attachments
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- Compare with the similar photo on the previous page. Note how much further from the Panhard rod the balance lever is now positioned.
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- Off position. Note the cut-out in the clevis, designed to fit the base of the balance lever.
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- Kinked bar.
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Handbrake issues...
Maybe not doing it wrong....
You did figure out the swing tree angle for the released brake levers. This is one of the reasons that some builders have to shorten the brake levers slightly.
The main reason for re drilling the brake leves is to move the brake rod forward of the rear chassis member, so that there is no contact if one suspension unit is compressed, while the other is fully extended. Moving the roda forward an inch fixes the problem. Adding longer dampers makes it appear that there is more clearance than there actually is. I don't know if this is required on all of the cars, but it has been for the few W11s I have built, both early and late chassis.
While it is possible to put multiple bends in the brake rod, re drilling the brake lever keeps everything mostly a straight pull, with only a single kink or bow necessary to clear the Panhard rod.
Re drilling the brake levers will put the RH brake rod a little farther forward, which puts the crossover point beneath the Panhard rod, and a little closer to the axle mounting point. This means that less bend is necessary, or just an angle bend to move the rod a little farther forward of the Panhard rod.
I have seen rods bent around the chassis members, but this is usually changed before the car is driven, and the brake levers are re drilled.
My own experience is that the brake rods may contact the chassis if they are not moved forward of the frame tube by re drilling the brake levers. While the rods can be bent, the fewer bends, the better. I end up levering the RH rod forward a little, and it clears the Panahard rod with room to spare. The hand brake works just fine.
The real test of the hand brake is if it holds the car from rolling downhill backwards (nose pointed up hill), as the brake shoes have no self energizing action when the car is rolling backwards, and require maximum clamping force from the brake rod system. Forwards is a piece of cake. The brake shoes tighten themselves due to their self energizing action.
You did figure out the swing tree angle for the released brake levers. This is one of the reasons that some builders have to shorten the brake levers slightly.
The main reason for re drilling the brake leves is to move the brake rod forward of the rear chassis member, so that there is no contact if one suspension unit is compressed, while the other is fully extended. Moving the roda forward an inch fixes the problem. Adding longer dampers makes it appear that there is more clearance than there actually is. I don't know if this is required on all of the cars, but it has been for the few W11s I have built, both early and late chassis.
While it is possible to put multiple bends in the brake rod, re drilling the brake lever keeps everything mostly a straight pull, with only a single kink or bow necessary to clear the Panhard rod.
Re drilling the brake levers will put the RH brake rod a little farther forward, which puts the crossover point beneath the Panhard rod, and a little closer to the axle mounting point. This means that less bend is necessary, or just an angle bend to move the rod a little farther forward of the Panhard rod.
I have seen rods bent around the chassis members, but this is usually changed before the car is driven, and the brake levers are re drilled.
My own experience is that the brake rods may contact the chassis if they are not moved forward of the frame tube by re drilling the brake levers. While the rods can be bent, the fewer bends, the better. I end up levering the RH rod forward a little, and it clears the Panahard rod with room to spare. The hand brake works just fine.
The real test of the hand brake is if it holds the car from rolling downhill backwards (nose pointed up hill), as the brake shoes have no self energizing action when the car is rolling backwards, and require maximum clamping force from the brake rod system. Forwards is a piece of cake. The brake shoes tighten themselves due to their self energizing action.