As I'm expecting better front brakes are needed now the Toyota engine is in place, I'm looking a all the combinations that have been used before. I really want to avoid going 4 pot as it looks too modern on a 50's car. Peter May doesn't offer his MGB caliper based kits any more as the calipers are hard to source. He would put together the rest of the kit but advises it was designed to run with stock bearings. As I want to go to taper rollers at the same time I need something else. Bumped into an ex- Midget racer yesterday at the Oundle Classic and he used Marina / Ital discs back in the day. 248mm nominal dia and 46 mm height vs Midget 60mm means room for a spacer that can accommodate the change in hub position with the taper roller brgs. Then maybe source some two pot calipers for either Wilwood or Hi Spec?? Could work...
So, first fit the Peter May taper roller conversion and see where the hub ends up. Then buy a pair of Marina discs. Do some measuring and decide which calipers look favourite. How hard can it be? Will keep you posted.
As for the rears I'm happy with the drums for now but has anyone found any Minifins or similar aluminium drums that don't have the usual Mini 1" spacer cast in? I hoped it would be easy to machine off the spacer but some of the pics I've seem show the the spacer is hollowed out from the inside face so it is going to get a bit delicate once you machine off the outer 1" or so.
May need better front brakes
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: May need better front brakes
It all sounds like a good plan to me. It doesn't sound that difficult, really.
If you go with the minifin druns in the rear, you might make a change in the wheel's backside spacing to accommodate the extra track width. I often increase the rear track by an inch (total), depending on which axle housing I am using, and the wheel choice. There is actually quite a bit of room back there, and the extra track width can make the transition to over steer a bit more progressive, and leave some tuning room for your dampers and springs to get the balance you might be looking for with the stronger engine.
The Peter May rear disc kit seems reasonably priced as well. Actually, not much more than the alloy fin drums cost here. Hmmm. 'Has me thinking...
You can also check Outlaw calipers, as well as the Wilwood. If your current problem is modulation and an "iffy" inconsistent pedal under hard braking or cornering, the taper rollers will fix that problem. You can get taper rollers without a change in the hub's position.
If you are worried about the look, Outlaw doesn't have a name cast in. Or you could just mill ID off the Wilwoods, and paint the things black.
The only big two pot (single opposed pistons) that I know of are the large early alloy Girlings used on the 23 I have been working on. EXPENSIVE, but available (the ones on this 23 are new). Also authentic. I have seen a 4 pot Toyota pickup truck caliper used (MGB sized, with just little grinding to fit wire wheels), but don't know the original application. Have fun working out the master cylinder setup. Dual masters will be the likely way to go, with a balance bar. Westfield has the brake pedal in stock.
I'd probably go with some special brackets for radial mount front brakes, shimmed into position with the taper rollers. Twin masters and a balance bar. Cylinder bore to taste.
Really curious as to what you end up with.
If you go with the minifin druns in the rear, you might make a change in the wheel's backside spacing to accommodate the extra track width. I often increase the rear track by an inch (total), depending on which axle housing I am using, and the wheel choice. There is actually quite a bit of room back there, and the extra track width can make the transition to over steer a bit more progressive, and leave some tuning room for your dampers and springs to get the balance you might be looking for with the stronger engine.
The Peter May rear disc kit seems reasonably priced as well. Actually, not much more than the alloy fin drums cost here. Hmmm. 'Has me thinking...
You can also check Outlaw calipers, as well as the Wilwood. If your current problem is modulation and an "iffy" inconsistent pedal under hard braking or cornering, the taper rollers will fix that problem. You can get taper rollers without a change in the hub's position.
If you are worried about the look, Outlaw doesn't have a name cast in. Or you could just mill ID off the Wilwoods, and paint the things black.
The only big two pot (single opposed pistons) that I know of are the large early alloy Girlings used on the 23 I have been working on. EXPENSIVE, but available (the ones on this 23 are new). Also authentic. I have seen a 4 pot Toyota pickup truck caliper used (MGB sized, with just little grinding to fit wire wheels), but don't know the original application. Have fun working out the master cylinder setup. Dual masters will be the likely way to go, with a balance bar. Westfield has the brake pedal in stock.
I'd probably go with some special brackets for radial mount front brakes, shimmed into position with the taper rollers. Twin masters and a balance bar. Cylinder bore to taste.
Really curious as to what you end up with.
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erictharg
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:50 pm
Re: May need better front brakes
Already running twin 0.7" cylinders and bias bar, along with the smaller Mini rear slaves. Brakes and feel have been fine - my only reason for going to taper rollers is ease of maintenance. Never had a problem with pedal of feel. Hate the ball bearings usually falling apart when I need to pull the hubs! Will keep you posted on progress. Likely to accelerate (no pun intended) after whenever my first track test is! I wouldn't mind a little increase in rear track but a whole inch feels to much with stock bearings. But maybe 3/8" each side would be good in case I need to run the bigger 525M13 Dunlop rear tyres.... or Avon ACB9 rr's. Currently they squirm enough when cornering hard to rub the radius arm bolt heads. Not good.
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: May need better front brakes
I run the double bearing hubs with the wider track. Properly fitted, this makes for a very stout rear axle assembly, giving much better support for the axle drive plate.
I install the seals backwards (cup side outward), seated with stud and bearing mount (Locktite Red). This keeps the seals in place and eliminates the leak problem that the double bearings have on occasion. One of my builds has been running this setup for a couple of years now, with over 10K miles on it.
However, the double bearing hubs are expensive. If you build a rear axle assembly with race axle shafts, LSD and the double bearing hubs, you can have more than £1500 invested. We have not even added disc brakes, yet.
If there is room for the 2" additional track width, I would try the alfin drums if you have race axles with the thick drive plates. Most of the load is carried by the axle drive plate, and you can get a stronger rear axle bearing. It might work quite well. Your tires will be free of the trailing arms.
I install the seals backwards (cup side outward), seated with stud and bearing mount (Locktite Red). This keeps the seals in place and eliminates the leak problem that the double bearings have on occasion. One of my builds has been running this setup for a couple of years now, with over 10K miles on it.
However, the double bearing hubs are expensive. If you build a rear axle assembly with race axle shafts, LSD and the double bearing hubs, you can have more than £1500 invested. We have not even added disc brakes, yet.
If there is room for the 2" additional track width, I would try the alfin drums if you have race axles with the thick drive plates. Most of the load is carried by the axle drive plate, and you can get a stronger rear axle bearing. It might work quite well. Your tires will be free of the trailing arms.
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StephenH
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: May need better front brakes
Eric, the Westfield factory do now offer an upgrade brake kit. I'm going to use it on my new build.
However, it does use 4 pot front callipers so that may put you off. Personally, I'm not bothered as the brakes are not that obvious on an XI with the front wheels being so enclosed by the front clamshell.
However, it does use 4 pot front callipers so that may put you off. Personally, I'm not bothered as the brakes are not that obvious on an XI with the front wheels being so enclosed by the front clamshell.
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: May need better front brakes
Just a suggestion...
After building a few W11s...
The brakes on the Westfield are actually pretty good if you get rid of the tandem master cylinder, install a twin master setup and add the taper wheel bearings to improve the modulation and feel, while adding adjustable balance. The brakes were designed for a car that is more than 500 lbs heavier, and unless you have more than 150 HP, will work fine on the 1100 lb W11 on road approved tires or vintage race Dunlops. You can fine tune the setup with a set of slotted or drilled rotors, or with brake pads. I hammer mine in the canyons and at the track and have not had any problems with fade at all, using Porterfield R4S or R4E pads. I have around 130 HP.
However, traction off of the corners is problematic with only 70 HP. I suggest spending the extra money on a clutch type LSD (TranX or 3J) and a set of race axles. This will ensure that the car will accelerate off of a corner, which feels like having an extra 20 HP. While the cost of the LSD is a bit dear, the improvement is far better than just adding power to the engine that the chassis can't use. Regardless of engine power, you will need race axles for the LSD. They will break like uncooked spaghetti, either at the spline, or at the drive plate. I know, as I have the parts to prove it.
My preference is for the clutch type diffs, as the Quaife helical type can occasionally go "open" if the inside wheel comes off the ground in cornering. This doesn't happen with the clutch type diff. Also, the clutch types are a little less expensive, and are adjustable for slip.
There is nothing you can do with the suspension to fix this problem, as the roll center is very high in the rear, and the axle will follow the body in roll. Adding a front anti sway bar is helpful in reducing body roll and the attending breaking of traction, but not much. Too much bar only makes the handling bias towards understeer, while the inside rear wheel still spins.
Also, the 45/90 LSD setup will stabilize the chassis during corner entry, making the transition to oversteer smoother and easier to control with the throttle.
If you already budgeted for the LSD and axles, then go for the brakes. But then, the chassis needs longer dampers...
Maybe bigger brakes on a 1380 W11 would be farther down the list, after the twin master cylinders (a relatively cheap improvement) for feel and adjustable balance.
After building a few W11s...
The brakes on the Westfield are actually pretty good if you get rid of the tandem master cylinder, install a twin master setup and add the taper wheel bearings to improve the modulation and feel, while adding adjustable balance. The brakes were designed for a car that is more than 500 lbs heavier, and unless you have more than 150 HP, will work fine on the 1100 lb W11 on road approved tires or vintage race Dunlops. You can fine tune the setup with a set of slotted or drilled rotors, or with brake pads. I hammer mine in the canyons and at the track and have not had any problems with fade at all, using Porterfield R4S or R4E pads. I have around 130 HP.
However, traction off of the corners is problematic with only 70 HP. I suggest spending the extra money on a clutch type LSD (TranX or 3J) and a set of race axles. This will ensure that the car will accelerate off of a corner, which feels like having an extra 20 HP. While the cost of the LSD is a bit dear, the improvement is far better than just adding power to the engine that the chassis can't use. Regardless of engine power, you will need race axles for the LSD. They will break like uncooked spaghetti, either at the spline, or at the drive plate. I know, as I have the parts to prove it.
My preference is for the clutch type diffs, as the Quaife helical type can occasionally go "open" if the inside wheel comes off the ground in cornering. This doesn't happen with the clutch type diff. Also, the clutch types are a little less expensive, and are adjustable for slip.
There is nothing you can do with the suspension to fix this problem, as the roll center is very high in the rear, and the axle will follow the body in roll. Adding a front anti sway bar is helpful in reducing body roll and the attending breaking of traction, but not much. Too much bar only makes the handling bias towards understeer, while the inside rear wheel still spins.
Also, the 45/90 LSD setup will stabilize the chassis during corner entry, making the transition to oversteer smoother and easier to control with the throttle.
If you already budgeted for the LSD and axles, then go for the brakes. But then, the chassis needs longer dampers...
Maybe bigger brakes on a 1380 W11 would be farther down the list, after the twin master cylinders (a relatively cheap improvement) for feel and adjustable balance.