Westfield Elevens

I suspect that the awkward looking rollbar is due to SCCA regulations although I do not know what class one would run this car. I have the impression that in here in the US they hate replicas and do their best to make life difficult for those trying to race them. The historic racing scene is nothing like that in the UK, our premiere event, the Monterey Historics is more a parade than an actual race. If you touch in the heat of battle you are black flagged and will never race there again.... Sort of puts a damper on things, wot? The closest we have is various series that are mostly '60's and '70's cars, nothing at all like the choices that you guys have.

SCCA has classes for just about everything, but that doesn't mean that you would be competitive. I used to run a Renault R5Turbo in "super production", which would be the same as Trans AM. Tube framed race cars with 5.7 liter engines, against our 1400 cc turbo unit body. Anyway, they did put us in a class... Mighty nice of them. Funny, but some of those tube frame cars broke, and we didn't finish last every time out.

Anyway, this doesn't have anything to do with vintage racing at all. The car was prepped for SCCA CSR, a class that even a vintage Lotus 11 would still fit (and be 20 seconds a lap slower than the field of modern CSRs.

Replica has nothing to do with anything at the SCCA. The W11 is a sports racing car (as was the original 11). It would run in whatever class the engine fits into. C Sports Racing (up to 1.5 liter, I think), Maybe DSR (big bore bike engine sports racers), depending on the displacement. However, C and DSR has some very hot cars, including Radicals, Van Diemen, Stohr (Check out Stohr.com for a look at what a modern, bike engine racer looks like), hot rodded spec racers, home builts, and other small displacement, factory built carbon fiber chassis cars that weigh a lot less, and have more powerful engines. Note that this has NOTHING to do with vintage racing. This is all out club racing, with a shot at the runnoffs. Not many racers would be impressed, as you would just be a moving chicane... No downforce, no grip, no power, no speed...

There have been a couple of W11s prepped for CSR. Not much of a race car by modern standards, though. Not at all competitive. To mount real tires, the coachwork has to be cut up, wider tires fitted. 'Might as well race a Caterham in one of the production classes. You would have a better chance.

Monterey does have some good races (not all parades), but it's not anything like what goes on in the UK. We do have HSR, VARA and other clubs that have a bit more aggressive racing than there is at Monterey. Some of the clubs, might even allow a W11 to race if properly prepped (few ever are, running 13" race tires instead of the original type skinny 15s). The idea is to have fun, and not wreck the equipment. If contact is what you want, and duels to the death, go with the SCCA, in a modern racer, with modern safety equipment and design. Something you can actually buy parts for when you prang it. Seriously, racing a W11 in SCCA is about as appropriate as trying to enter a horse drawn spider.

There is also NASA and other regional racing clubs that would have a spot for the W11.

If you want to have fun with the W11 here in So California, try Alfa Romeo Club of So Cal. You still have to pass tech, need a proper roll bar, but you can get away with just a single forward brace. Just remember what it is there for, and that it is entirely possible to crash at Willow Springs at over 100 mph.

I have no desire to race my car. I do want to see and hear the great cars of the past used as they were meant to be used: in anger. A pack of hopped up Corvettes and Porsches are of no interest, but the racers of the '30's, '40's and '50's are. Where in North America can I see that?

To say that a car designed in the '50's would have to run modern rubber and be classed by displacement proves my point about the US sanctioning bodies discouraging running true vintage racers. If they allowed like to race like that would be different.

Is it not true that the Monterey Historics are by invitation only and that the no touch rule is in effect? I am not talking about NASCAR style intentional bumping, but merely incidental contact during a hard fought race. Thus there are no hard fought races....... And cars circulating the track while not actually racing is a parade in my book.

Monterey does have actual races. Note that no one wants to wreck their car. If you want to see lots of other vintage racers, you can go to any HSR, HMSA or VARA meet. They happen monthly, at Willow Springs, Auto Club Speedway, Buttonwillow, Thunder Hill, Infinion and Laguna Seca. Lots of events to visit. Many are run in conjunction with NASA events as well. I have a friend who keeps his Lotus 11 Club back east, for east coast vintage races, and his Shadow F1 car here on the west coast for our events here. He does about a dozen races a year.

SCCA has nothing to do with vintage racing, Their classes are for RACE CARS that are currently competitive, or run in pro series. This is not to discourage vintage racers. Old race cars that are no longer classed or no longer competitive are just, well, old, and become our own vintage racers. Having SCCA deal with vintage cars makes as much sense as NASCAR allowing spec Miatas to race in Sprint Cup. They are not discouraged, but they do need to have their own classes and races. There are Vintage Race clubs for that. Lots of them. More than enough to have more racing than the guys who own the cars can afford, or have time to attend.

SCCA uses displacement for the "Sports Racing" classes, as it did in the 60s for the "modified" class. Modern Sports Racers are carbon fiber, and very sophisticated. A modern CSR car can nearly equal the performance of an 8 liter Group 7 from the 70s. There really is no point in trying to compete with an old tube frame crock with a solid axle, and an antediluvian engine and brakes.

Sure, SCCA does have the odd Turner, Sprite, Spitfire, MG or Triumph racing. You even see some of these at the runoffs. Wide tires, modified plastic bodies and tube frames are the norm, now. Such are the rules. However, this is beginning to be the exception, rather than the rule, as it was about a decade ago. Now, the Miata, and other Asian models displace all those British and Italian cars. The Brits and Italians are all racing at the VARA events.

Monterey is not just by invitation only. You can submit an entry, but they have to approve it. The car must be special, and the driver, experienced. They don't want another old H Prod Sprite, or 20 Triumph TR3s. They want interesting sports cars that we just don't see on the track anymore. They want drivers that have run their other large scale vintage events, such as the "Wine Country Classic", or the Walter Mitty.

The Monterey event is now run under new management. The old management still runs the Wine Country Classic, and a couple of other events.

The thing to remember is that Vintage Racing is not at all about a show for spectators. It is all about the racers, and the cars. Most events are not attended at all, 'cept by friends and family. The guys with the cars certainly enjoy the racing, and don't think that it is a parade. If you think that it is, get a Spec Sprite (about as cheap a vintage racer as possible, and you can rent them) and see if you can keep up with the parade...

I have done, at last count, 38 Monterey Hysteric weekends. I remember that there were very few people at that first race weekend... It was fun. My old Lotus 7 Series 1 races there, now. I really hate to see those cars damaged.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with your contention about vintage racing being not about the spectators. If that is so, how do you explain Goodwood? There the spectators in their period dress with their period cars are a huge part of the flavor and feel of the meeting. How do you explain the huge crowds of non-participating spectators that show up every year for classic Events at Spa or Le Mans. Is there something different in the European water? The attitude you describe is responsible for there not being an American Goodwood and will guarantee that there will never be one either. Where would F1 or Moto GP be today if the belief was that it was solely for the benefit of the teams and drivers, perhaps a parochial inward looking hobby limited only to the participants and of no interest to the general motoring public? Oh wait, that IS what SCCA, VARA and HSR are.......

BTW, you never responded to my question about the no touch rule at the Monterey Historics....... Is there such a policy in place?

Its' not. It's about racing. Spectators came much later, and some shows, like Monterey are an exception. The racing is for racers. 'Always has been. Monterey didn't start out with thousands of spectators. More like hundreds that first year. Vintage racing was new in the US. Most of us were at the Concourse at Pebble. I was at both. Vintage racing was an actual motor sport in the UK at that time. They had been doing it for many years prior to our little start at Monterey.

Goodwood started later, in a market that had vintage racing for a decade prior to our start. Anyway, that's not the point.

The reason that Goodwood exists is to gratify the racers. That it makes spectators happy as well is just icing on the cake. However, all those spectators makes the ticket expensive for both racers and spectators.

Yes, vintage is an inward looking hobby, as it should be. We have races to suit the competitors. Our success is that we racers have fun, and put on a good show for ourselves. We don't want to wreck our cars, and enjoy clean, exciting racing. We are not NASCAR, or even ALMS. I am pretty happy with the events put on by VARA, HSR and the others. They are EXACTLY what we racers want and need to enjoy our cars.

Monterey stewards frown upon corporeal contact when racing. It does happen on occasion, but if it is aggressive driving, the stakes are too high. Old racers are really just fuel tanks with tinker toy frames. Even installing a proper roll bar, and fuel cells don't really make them safer. They are also expensive, and difficult to replace. Damage your own car against a wall is one thing. Bounce off that wall and take out some guy with an Aston DBR1, well... That's different. Sure, there are "no touch" rules, and NO ONE is against them. Race aggressively, and you wont be invited back. They don't want crashed cars, or injuries. They have had some big, expensive crashes at Monterey, back in the earlier years. No reason to repeat that.

If you want aggressive racing, go with the SCCA or NASA and crash a production car that can be replaced. We have enough cloned vintage racers already, their data plates the only remaining DNA, maybe. Sometimes the plates re reproductions as well...

Stirling Moss broke the rules. He tried to go from the 4th row in his borrowed Aston to the front in the second turn, running Vic Edelbrock off the road in his lovely Costin/Lister/Corvette, and taking out a couple of other cars. He is no longer invited to drive at Monterey, for good reason. There is nothing to win, no sponsors to impress, and the spectators don't like it when you delay the races while the field circulates around under the caution flag. Even Phil Hill asked as we enjoyed dinner together, "What's with Moss?".

Sure, some of the guys at Goodwood drive with their heads up and locked, but for the most part, they race cleanly. NOBODY wants to damage their car. None of the drivers complain about the rules, unless they break them.

Does this make vintage racing an inward hobby? Damn right it does. The racing is for the racers. If the spectators don't like the show, they can sit home and watch NASCAR turn two caution laps for every race lap.

Personally, I will stick with the grass roots vintage racing at VARA or the other clubs. Much more fun.

If you were a vintage racer, you would understand, and be attending local club events, and enjoying close racing and a great show. Sure, there may be only 100 other spectators, but why give away the secret?

Rather than bitch about rules and Monterey (which I think has great racing and a wonderful atmosphere, but has grown a bit too expensive), why not just take a 100 mile run to Willow Springs in the W11, and enjoy your self for an afternoon. Find an arrive and drive company and rent a Bugeye for a driver's school and race weekend.

Be a competitor, and learn what this is all about, at the grass roots level. It's just not about guys in Ferraris...

I'm so glad i live and race in the UK, the racing is fantastic, you dont get banned for accidently coming together with someone (you dont want it to happen but it can when racing so closely and 99% of the time its unintentional - unless you drive in btcc...).

Again, I am afraid that I must disagree. The whole idea that one should not "let the secret out" is indicative of an elitism and, dare I say it, snobbery that I cannot subscribe to. I fail to see what is gained by such an attitude, how it can be of any benefit to the sport/hobby. Nor can I see how the sport would be harmed by having a large audience of non-participating spectators.

"Racing" in such a fashion as to avoid all incidental or accidental contact is just not Racing. As to your concerns about damaging or wearing out old racers, if they are never used, who will ever need replacement parts? Who then will be in the business of supplying those parts? And without those parts who will ever want to use these cars as they were intended. I have no problem with "tool room" copies racing on the track with original cars as long as they are kept in period with no modern changes. If it means more W196's or 250F's or Auto Unions on the track, how can that be bad for the sport? Jay Leno recently wrote in his column in Octane about the troubles he has getting consumable parts for his Duesenbergs: there are lots of cars out there, but they are never driven, thus there is not specialist industry supplying parts for them. It seems to me that our brothers across the Atlantic have found a way out of that vicious circle by actually using their racers. The backpages of Classic & Sportscar magazine are filled with adverts from just this type of small firm, the backpages of Classic Motorsport are nearly empty in comparison, I wonder why?

<brief hijack>

"There is a other westfield 11 on ebay "

Hello Melon.28 and welcome to the board.
I didn't notice a new poster in the middle of this thread...

</brief hijack>

I will take the high road here.

I have been involved in racing for more than 45 years. Started in karts, autoX, then prepping an H Prod Fiat (former SCCA Nat'l Champ), then time trials, SCCA Showroom Stock A Camaro, Mustang, then A Sedan Mustang, CMC NASA, SCCA Super Production Renault R5Turbo, Time Trials and Alfa Club racing with my own Mustang and a Katech Corvette Z06. Then covering ALMS, Indycar for the magazines. I don't think that "racing" means that I have to destroy or use up the car to enjoy competition. I have won quite a few events without blowing up an engine. In fact, my Mustang did over 6000 miles at Willow Springs alone, and when I sold it with over 120,000 miles on it, it still had the original engine, and none of the horses had yet escaped. It had not been crashed, dented or otherwise damaged, save for a bent wheel when I put one off the track and spun the car. I drove home on it. I used it, but didn't use it up. Sorry if that is not "racing" to you.

I have never blown up one of my cars, or had any of the cars blown up that I was involved in or prepped for NASA or SCCA racing. Sure, a lot of luck was involved, but WE didn't destroy the equipment to win. This included H production, Show Room Stock A and American Sedan and IMSA sedan events racing both a Camaro and a Mustang. We never "totaled" a car. Yet, we raced, and picked up a regional championship.

One thing to think about is that in the UK, if you crash your vintage racer, someone will rebuild the entire car, save for the data plate. Chassis, engines and gearboxes can all be replicated. This makes it easier to fix a burned out GTO or 250F Maserati that has had a corner or two knocked off. You can buy an entire D Type, Lightweight E Type, or a Lotus 23, brand new, only waiting for a authentic, probably reproduced chassis plate. The jigs are there, the plans, and the guys that built the cars in the first place. They are OLD, but still enthusiastic. Some have taught younger men the "skills".

I drive my cars, a lot. I race them when it is practical to do so, and work with racing teams that are active in SCCA, NASA or vintage competition. We believe that we are racing. If you don't think so, why not get a car and come out and show us how. Like I mentioned before, this is not a sport for spectators. It is for the "elite", the real racers that bring the cars to the events, spend their money and twist the tack needle to the red. We use up tires that cost $250 each at a single event. But most importantly, we have fun.

Anyway, how is it NOT snobbery to own a multi million car, then take it to a track and run it with other cars around? You talk about Mercedes and Auto Union cars as "get in and drive" situations. Hell, first, you have to MIX FUEL FOR THEM. They need crews just to start them. 'Not much different than modern F1 cars (I had a crew of three, plus me in the seat, to start the two I drove. One on the starter, another on the computer, and another to relay information to me so that I could handle the cockpit chores, such as holding an idle of 3575 RPM, "and not a rev more"). Note that there are very few of these cars in existence. Fewer than you have fingers on your right hand, in most cases. The value for an undamaged, or complete one? 10s of Millions. is there a point to crashing them, or using them up so that they break? What about the safety of the vehicle, and the driver? Do you really want to risk crashing one of those things, with a million tubes that can penetrate your torso like so many pins in a pin cushion? We have lost drivers in meaningless vintage competitions here in the US. It's always pointless. The cars were dangerous then, and dangerous now. We still enjoy them, but that's the fact. If they were so good, all of our heros would have died in their sleep.

Look, a good 23 is now $150,000 (but a perfect replica is $80K). A Ferrari 500 Mondial is several million. A REAL Lotus 11 Le Mans version with a DeDion and a fresh $20,000 FWB? Another $125,000. Maybe less if it's a copy that can maybe be raced at some meets. Snobbery? It goes with the territory. If you want to get away from the snobs, go to a VARA race and hang with the guys driving the Volvos, or the 7s. Maybe a guy with a BMC Genie or a Ginetta. I have a buddy that runs a Morgan. He only has $20,000 invested in his trick, bullet crank TR3 engine, and another $50K in the car.

You can get a replica of anything you want. Spares? for less than 10 Maserati 250Fs? How about for a more than a dozen, including the ones that really are not "real"? Jay, complaining about consumables for his Dusenbergs, which he drives, is understandable. It is also understandable that collectors with the rest of the Dusenbergs don't drive them. Some of them have numerous cars, and if you have a collection of, say, 25 grand classics, maybe only 5 are ready to run. Even Jay's collection has only about 30 cars that he can just start and drive off. About a third of the total collection. That doesn't mean that the rest are not drivable, but it does mean that they all need maintenance, especially if they have been sitting, prior to going out. Things like brakes need to be looked at, bled, serviced.

Vintage racing is all about the snobbery. Even in the UK, at the highest levels. Note that those guys over there cheat, building engines that didn't exist, stuck into replica chassis with dampers that have double adjustable internals that also never existed at the time those cars raced. It's a different world there, when it comes to vintage racing. It is ELITE, in both the best and worst possible ways.

Even in the UK, they don't ALL use these cars as hard as they were used when they were new, and the drivers were paid. A few guys use them up, but for the most part, they are careful. How many of their heros, and yours, died in those things? It can be VERY dangerous.

The reason that you don't see more specialty shops in the US (and there are a quite a few good ones here. Not all advertise) is that the cars are usually handled in Europe. They have been vintage racing for decades longer than we have, and can supply a chassis for just about anything . No reason to do it here, where we don't have all the pertinent information to build that long nose D Type or Lister from scratch.They have the people there, and the companies that built the cars were there. If you want something that is not European, like a Hagemann, Scarab or Chaparral, you get it built here. If you have any Group 7 car, you can get any sort of Lola T70 built here, as the jigs and plans came over with the cars to keep them serviced. I can get you a new T70 tub. All you need is cash.

But going back to your first entry, note that most of the cars that comprise vintage grids are just the cars you don't want to see. Lotus Cortinas, Alpine Renaults, 7s, Cobras, Jaguars, Mallocks, Early Trans Am Mustangs and Alfa GTVs, Porsches galore, and the occasional Corvette Grand Sport. Small, light weight European sports cars and sedans, big American V8 sports cars and specials. This is what we race, what we can afford. Some guys have very expensive cars that they had when they cost $4K, not $400K as they are today. They are worried about their investments.

The cars used to be tools to win races, Weapons used to the death. Today, they are wonderful machines, that are awe inspiring to drive quickly, or against other cars. We don't have to beat them to death as they once were. The cars we have are survivors, and we intend to keep them around a while longer. If some guys want to use their original cars up, and then replicate them for more battles, well, that's their business. I don't mind, but I don't need to see another Lister or Cooper driven into an Armco barrier.

Your view of this is from a spectator's standpoint. You want to see cars going sideways, and bumping into each other. Expensive cars, with amateur drivers. That's the view from your side of the fence. What about the view from the cockpit? It's not a secret that having someone get aggressive and ruin your body work, or your body, is not acceptable behavior in some situations. An accident is one thing, but an on track shoving match with million dollar cars... Yes, you need to put yourself in the driver's seat.

No touch racing? That's how it is in the Formula classes, and in the motorcycle classes. See, if you touch... Oh, never mind...

We see Ginettas beating Corvettes all the time. We saw an Alfa GTZ run a Grand Sport Corvette ragged at Monterey. A fabulous race and nobody hit anyone. We can have lots of fun, and race clean.

Before you rip a sport. or call it elitist, why not try it, first.

As for having a normal sort of racing accident, well, that is up to the stewards. Those guys are usually racers themselves, and there is no automatic dismissal if a couple of guys come together when it is not due to outright stupidity and aggression. It also depends on the club.

We go to the events to race and have fun. Some of the guys suffer from "Red Mist". We let them go by. We love our race cars, and we enjoy driving them. Seriously, we don't care what the folks in the stands might say. If they can do it better, they can buy a car and come out and race themselves. Let's see how they do when it is their money, and their body doing the racing.

I think that you should put a roll bar in your car, buy a driver's suit, then come out and run with the Alfa Club time trial group. Drive your car out, as I drive mine out. Lets see if you can race, and drive home. I will spot you 6 seconds at Willow Springs big track. It will be fun. I want to see how hard YOU race. No touching. I don't want an off track excursion in my tube framed racer, thank you.