Westfield Elevens

Ahhhhh, i get it now - you're a fast track driver not actually a racer. I say this because there are 2 types of 'racer', there are the types that can race wheel to wheel knowing exactly whats going on beneath and around them being able to drive inches apart from another competitor. Then there are the types that call themselves racers but are in actual fact fast road drives, able to set quick lap times on there own but struggle when cars are around them for fear of losing control.

You seem to have gotten your knickers in a twist, every reply mentions something about contact or car destruction. If you want that then go stockcar/banger racing, all we're saying is that in 'proper' racing contact can happen - no one wants it to but racing so close with other cars incidents do occur. In the 13years of car racing i've been involved with i can count on one hand then number of incidents i've had with other cars.

I will finish this later as i'm late.

oh and I would happily take up the offer if i lived closer by the way but then it might scare you having someone within 20ft of your car on the track...

1. There is no need for you to personalize a general discussion by insinuating that I am somehow lacking or that my points are without merit until I race my car. I have clearly stated in this and other forums that I have no intention to do so, if you feel that this invalidates my opinions may I politely suggest that this is your problem, not mine.

2. You seem to equate the value and running expenses of vintage racing and the personal wealth of the participants with snobbery and elitism. I can assure you that in my experience the one does not follow the other. Mr. Leno is a perfect example in our own backyard. While not all persons with large personal fortunes are as down to earth and friendly as him, I have found that it is those with pretensions to wealth that are the most insistent upon erecting social barriers.

3. I would find your arguments much more effective were they not buried beneath so much excess verbiage, often it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. You make many good points in these discussions and bring a very worthwhile viewpoint to them, but it is just getting harder to find them......

We get close together in races all the time. We just make it a point not to "touch".

Racing with de-facto "no touch" rules: F1, or any open wheel racing. Touching is a bit dangerous, breaks cars and damages drivers. To finish first, first, you have to finish. NASCAR has rules about aggressive driving, believe it or not. So does SCCA, IMSA, ALMS...

Motorcycle racing. Sure, occasionally, a pair of road racing or dirt bikes come together, but most of the time this happens, their race is over. I was involved in the old AFM for a few years. The riders avoided contact for the obvious reasons. This is why you don't see Auto Unions and Mercedes beating on each other in vintage, besides the fact that the cars are not really replaceable, and literally priceless.

Air racing. You touch, you die. Even in Red Bull, with individual aircraft... Break the low altitude restriction, or enter the course too fast, touch the water or the ground, and you are immediately disqualified. The problem got to be bad enough that the cancelled the races for a couple of years to straighten out the safety aspect. Nobody died, fortunately.

I an not personalizing the argument. I am saying that unless you race, and risk your own equipment, you don't have the perspective. It doesn't have to be your car. Rent one. (Nothing is faster than a rented car...) See if it really is racing if no one beats on your expensive racer. Your premise that the cars are not being used, but being "paraded" is a spectator's viewpoint. It's different in the cockpit. It's different from the pit wall when you are involved, directly.

Jay Leno doesn't vintage race. He is a consummate gentleman, a collector with excellent taste, and loves to drive his cars, just as I do. He is not a racer, he is a collector.
He is wealthy beyond the dreams of most. No, not a snob, but not a racer either. But then, all of the racers I have met are not snobs at all. Not a one.

However, the guys with expensive vintage race cars do like to keep them in shape, meaning in the original shape that they arrived at the track, and not creased or wrinkled, Sure, stuff happens, but no one WANTS to fix a hundred grand in damage after a fun weekend. Racing of any sort is expensive, even for the cheapest of vintage cars. Most of the guys who go to the races can't afford to damage the car, blow up the engine. Even tires are a huge expense, at around $1200 a set for W11s. That's big money for little racers.

The real snobbery has to do with eligible cars. I have not found any barriers in vintage racing, other than having an approved race car. Part of the problem is that guys are prepping cars for vintage racing, starting with old road cars, using modifications that were not available or standard during the time period that those cars raced. It really is not fair to the racer with an authentic period machine. There is some snobbery here, as the race clubs grow a little tired of '57 Corvettes with 383 engines... Even disc brakes are looked upon with disdain, but accepted as a "safety" item. Even my buddy with his Morgan is building a killer billet crank engine, as he thinks that he needs it to "race". Those engines didn't really exist in the early 60s, when his car was competitive. I'd ban that stuff, as it makes things expensive, to no end other than to make the car a couple of MPH faster.

I am always in awe of a talented racer balancing his machine on those narrow vintage tires, driving the car at the limit. I even love to see a pair of racers doing that in close quarters. But when it gets crazy, we get damaged machinery, and damaged drivers, in some cases. No one is happy about any of that.

I enjoy the races I can afford to run. I don't know what "fast track driver" means. I race, and occasionally do well. It's great fun, and I get to drive other people's cars as I don't have a reputation for damaging equipment. Since writing about this stuff is my job, having the access is important. I get to go fast, mix it up with other cars... But I don't push the envelope, or wrinkle the wings... There is nothing in it for me, or the car's owner (especially if it's me owning the car). Vintage racing is just fun, and there is no need to mess up the car just to make a point that means nothing.

If I want to do that, I have Spec Miata. Cheap parts, lots of contact, quick repairs (most of the time).

Or, and I have seen this happen a few times, the aggressive driver moves on to a professional race series, where aggression is approved. Porsche Cup is a popular starting point, usually moving to ALMS or GrandAM later.

I love the machines, and it hurts to see something beautiful ruined. If you don't feel fulfilled watching vintage racing, don't. There are numerous professional classes to enjoy, where cars are driven to the limit just for your satisfaction. Just don't knock the guys who enjoy it.

Vintage racing is for the owners and drivers. It always has been. If that is snobbery, well, that's your opinion. We have fun, try to stay within the budget, and enjoy the hell out of our cars. Sorry if you don't enjoy it as much as we do. Perhaps if you participated... Not with your car (it's not eligible, anyway), but with someone's car, or an eligible car, or at least take it to the track and run a time trial. Enjoy it somewhere where you can use all of its capability and performance.

Or, there is always Porsche Cup...

If you don't like all the words, don't read them all.

Been running events, club races, time trials, run what you brung for over 40 years, and have never tangled with another car. Had some close races, but no contact, and I have never put tooth marks on my heart, and loved every minute.

Isn't that the point?

I give up, why are you still going on about contact as if we all go out with the attitude to make contact??
No one goes out with that intention, especially in club racing, so get down off your 'high and mighty' soapbox and actually digest what we are saying!

When racing hard with someone an incident COULD (not WILL) occur - missed braking point, you might slide into them midcorner if you find oil on the track mid overtake, hell even a sudden cross wind could put you off course on a straight, especially in a light car.

I really cant be bothered with this subject anymore, its just like hitting your head against a brick wall.

As LA builder has said, some of your insites, suggestions hints and tips are indeed helpful and useful to people on here so please dont feel this is a personal attack against your contibutions in general - just on this subject i think your talking rubbish.

You are right. No one goes out with the idea of running other cars off the track (most of the time. I have some friends who have been banned from several clubs for being a little too aggressive. They deserve the ban. Each and every one).

The subject was about racing, and "no contact" rules that exist with some racing clubs. The idea expressed was that there could be no racing without contact, and that if one had such "no contact" rules, it was snobby, and elitist. That racing without contact was not racing, but rather, a parade. Note the quote, in context: " 'Racing' in such a fashion as to avoid all incidental or accidental contact is just not Racing". Sort of says it all, don't you think?

It is RACING. Maybe just not a type of racing that you want to watch (but is still fun to do, for most of us with cars that we love to take to the track).

We have excellent races with whatever club we compete in, and are not bothered by rules. We just race. We often get close, especially with drivers we know and trust. No one usually crashes, no one gets banned (most of the time). Nobody feels hobbled, or put out by the rules. We don't think that they are snobby. Most of us like them as they are. If we don't, we just change clubs. I imagine that it is the same in the UK.

And spectators are not the primary beneficiaries of the racing. It's all for the racers. As it should be at this low level of gentlemanly competition. We are there for fun. Better than trying to do this on Sunset Blvd...

If you don't want to race your own car, I understand. But don't tell the guys that go out and risk their machinery in the name of fun, that they are elite snobs, competing in a parade. If you don't want to race, and don't like the rules of an event that you are not familiar with, nor have participated in, I understand. The opinion is certainly valid, but ill informed (but you can get the sporting rules off of the internet if you are really interested).

It's fun. I wish I could afford to race more often, even if I am asked not to rub my opponents, even with affection. If you are looking for knock down, drag out vintage racing, you have to look elsewhere than Monterey, I guess. Goodwood is a good place to start. A VARA event at Willow Springs may be another, and so much closer. Note: The food is much better at Monterey, which makes it worth the trip.

The US based Westfield 11 that was listed on Ebay sold for $8000. About right, I guess.

I hope that all the parts are there... The kit is probably 30 years old. Maybe mid-80s.

I only have one suggestion. Sawzall!