A bit off topic, but I LOVE Harbor Freight! My current project is a kit rowing boat and they are my #1 source for epoxying and sanding supplies. I also have a drill press and belt/disc sander from them too. Granted, you have to do a bit of finish work and check the assembly on anything you buy there, but the price vs quality equation is worth it in the end.
I didn't know that they were in the UK though.......
Winged Sump
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Westfield 129
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Re: Winged Sump
My Harbor Freight experiences are mixed.
I would not buy a tap from Harbor Freight that would go into my engine, as it may (likely will or should) break, like so many of their drills, and, well, taps. Sears is better, and for the extra couple of dollars, a far better risk.
Harbor Freight is good for disposables, and certain "dumb" tools that require little in the way of precision, but do feature excess material. My press has been an excellent employee, and the "aircraft" riveter, the larger of the two offered, has done a good job over the years with minimal problems of automated disassembly.
In any case...
I just would not want a broken tap stuck in the already stuck plunger, and I certainly would not want the drill debris in there as well, right at the main oil gallery. But, having said that, it is likely that just the drilling will release the offending plunger.
Oh, and if you try an "easy out", that might do it as well. Better than a tap (and less swarf), I think, and you probably have a good one in your tap and die set. Of course, your chances for the part to release increase if you use some localized heat.
I would consider drilling and tapping the stuck plunger as a last resort, as in the last thing you remove from the engine once you have it out of the car and disassembled.
Perhaps some localized heat with a torch (also not without risks, but likely a good way to remove the plunger) on the engine block.
Anything is better than having to rebuild (or remove) the engine.
Jon's work brings him to the US often.
Wing sumps need a baffle to keep the shallow oil pool around the pickup. This is often a missed design point. The stock pan is pretty deep, and with an extra quart, will work just fine keeping the engine lubricated in an XI at the track, on vintage or road tires. A simple round baffle works wonders inside the stock pan to keep the pickup submerged under braking, which seems to be the big problem when big brakes and slicks are used at the track.
Trap doors to close off the wings may be helpful, but are complex.
I think that if you were to position the pickup with a fixture, and filled the sump (not installed on the engine) so that you could tilt it and observe the oil level, you would see what is happening. Note that the sump is not filled when the engine is running, especially at high RPM, so it is nearly empty most of the time. This, combined with the reduced sump depth, will cause problems at the track. If you can see how the oil sloshes around, you can figure out where to put your fence (or doors), and how much additional oil you would need to keep the pickup submerged.
I would not buy a tap from Harbor Freight that would go into my engine, as it may (likely will or should) break, like so many of their drills, and, well, taps. Sears is better, and for the extra couple of dollars, a far better risk.
Harbor Freight is good for disposables, and certain "dumb" tools that require little in the way of precision, but do feature excess material. My press has been an excellent employee, and the "aircraft" riveter, the larger of the two offered, has done a good job over the years with minimal problems of automated disassembly.
In any case...
I just would not want a broken tap stuck in the already stuck plunger, and I certainly would not want the drill debris in there as well, right at the main oil gallery. But, having said that, it is likely that just the drilling will release the offending plunger.
Oh, and if you try an "easy out", that might do it as well. Better than a tap (and less swarf), I think, and you probably have a good one in your tap and die set. Of course, your chances for the part to release increase if you use some localized heat.
I would consider drilling and tapping the stuck plunger as a last resort, as in the last thing you remove from the engine once you have it out of the car and disassembled.
Perhaps some localized heat with a torch (also not without risks, but likely a good way to remove the plunger) on the engine block.
Anything is better than having to rebuild (or remove) the engine.
Jon's work brings him to the US often.
Wing sumps need a baffle to keep the shallow oil pool around the pickup. This is often a missed design point. The stock pan is pretty deep, and with an extra quart, will work just fine keeping the engine lubricated in an XI at the track, on vintage or road tires. A simple round baffle works wonders inside the stock pan to keep the pickup submerged under braking, which seems to be the big problem when big brakes and slicks are used at the track.
Trap doors to close off the wings may be helpful, but are complex.
I think that if you were to position the pickup with a fixture, and filled the sump (not installed on the engine) so that you could tilt it and observe the oil level, you would see what is happening. Note that the sump is not filled when the engine is running, especially at high RPM, so it is nearly empty most of the time. This, combined with the reduced sump depth, will cause problems at the track. If you can see how the oil sloshes around, you can figure out where to put your fence (or doors), and how much additional oil you would need to keep the pickup submerged.
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Winged Sump
Success!!
Gary loaned me a 9/16 tap and it worked! I sacrificed my magnetic pick up tool (too long... initially!) to swiz around and pull out any swarf. Looks as clean in there as my spare engine, but the plunger has some gnarly marks on it as I rotated it free. This area is downstream of the pump and upstream of the filter, so any bits unlikely left will be caught.
I'll be installing the ball plunger tomorrow and running up. We'll look into a slosh-plate in due course, but will need to see what's what first.
Luckily, none of my HF taps were big enough. Actually, the set I bought looks a poor choice. I'd probably use the dies to clean up threads, but I really noticed the quality difference between Gary's tap and the ones in my set. Luckily, it cost me buttons - on sale - and, to be honest, the prices asked for decent sets are not outrageous when you consider the quality and the cost of having to re-work/replace a workpiece buggered up by a poor quality tool (and an orangutan using it!).
Thanks chaps!!! The power of the XI-Register collective nous in action.
Gary loaned me a 9/16 tap and it worked! I sacrificed my magnetic pick up tool (too long... initially!) to swiz around and pull out any swarf. Looks as clean in there as my spare engine, but the plunger has some gnarly marks on it as I rotated it free. This area is downstream of the pump and upstream of the filter, so any bits unlikely left will be caught.
I'll be installing the ball plunger tomorrow and running up. We'll look into a slosh-plate in due course, but will need to see what's what first.
Luckily, none of my HF taps were big enough. Actually, the set I bought looks a poor choice. I'd probably use the dies to clean up threads, but I really noticed the quality difference between Gary's tap and the ones in my set. Luckily, it cost me buttons - on sale - and, to be honest, the prices asked for decent sets are not outrageous when you consider the quality and the cost of having to re-work/replace a workpiece buggered up by a poor quality tool (and an orangutan using it!).
Thanks chaps!!! The power of the XI-Register collective nous in action.
Last edited by jonclancy on Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Winged Sump
Ball installed with mini-spring initially, but I was able to pump nearly 100psi on the starter motor. The spring may be a little shorter, but the coils are thicker and it's harder to compress.
I reinstalled with the standard spring, but am getting 80psi idle cold, 40 psi idle hot and the oil P follows throttle instantly. This appears to be caused by the valve not moving off the seat. I have a spare MG spring, so will try removing a coil or two and see what happens. Two steps forward etc.
I'm sure I've read something about this somewhere, so some googling is in order...
ETA: Found it in a couple of locations. I'll mesasure the free length of the spring/plunder and cut the spring to suit the spring ball and see how we go. Time now is 1449...
I reinstalled with the standard spring, but am getting 80psi idle cold, 40 psi idle hot and the oil P follows throttle instantly. This appears to be caused by the valve not moving off the seat. I have a spare MG spring, so will try removing a coil or two and see what happens. Two steps forward etc.
I'm sure I've read something about this somewhere, so some googling is in order...
ETA: Found it in a couple of locations. I'll mesasure the free length of the spring/plunder and cut the spring to suit the spring ball and see how we go. Time now is 1449...
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Winged Sump
Fifty psi half warm at idle. Two coils removed = around 10mm
Test drive now. 1538.
Test drive now. 1538.
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Winged Sump
Ah, not such good news. Started well. 55psi at pretty much all revs, and no loss of pressure under heavy braking.
All sorted, I thought.
Up the road I could make out a "swith, swith, swith" noise like a brake disc, but it seemed to be from the front (as I stopped to turn round).
On the way back, the oil P jumped to about 60psi, then as I neared home, started to follow the revs. It's as if the valve has stuck partially open again.
I've got some pics of the different springs to post later on.
Time for a cup of tea and a think. I am somewhat disappointed!
The good news is that the sump seems to be working fine!!
All sorted, I thought.
Up the road I could make out a "swith, swith, swith" noise like a brake disc, but it seemed to be from the front (as I stopped to turn round).
On the way back, the oil P jumped to about 60psi, then as I neared home, started to follow the revs. It's as if the valve has stuck partially open again.
I've got some pics of the different springs to post later on.
Time for a cup of tea and a think. I am somewhat disappointed!
The good news is that the sump seems to be working fine!!
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Winged Sump
Here are the spring pics:
MG, MG, Mini
[attachment=2]IMG_5024.JPG[/attachment]
Ball on MG spring
[attachment=1]IMG_5025.JPG[/attachment]
MG, MG, Mini Springs
[attachment=0]IMG_5026.JPG[/attachment]
MG, MG, Mini
[attachment=2]IMG_5024.JPG[/attachment]
Ball on MG spring
[attachment=1]IMG_5025.JPG[/attachment]
MG, MG, Mini Springs
[attachment=0]IMG_5026.JPG[/attachment]
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Last edited by jonclancy on Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Winged Sump
MG with ball, MG with plunger
Two coils removed (wear eye protection then you do this!!!!)
Two coils removed (wear eye protection then you do this!!!!)
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Winged Sump
I don't think that you have a problem, other than the plunger is stuck again.
Having the oil pressure track RPM is not really a problem. What you are looking for is the maximum pressure, usually reached around 2000~2500 RPM.
MAX Oil pressure should be 60 psi HOT. No more, NO LESS. My engines run at 60~62 at 80~90 C oil temp (20w-50 Valvoline Racing). I have an oil cooler as the ambient here is often around 34C and higher during the summer. Hotter at the desert race track. In the winter, when it is cold, it often takes a while for the pressure to drop below 75 psi as the oil warms. Once the oil reaches coolant temp, the pressure settles down to 60 psi. A little extra pressure is OK, but you are wasting HP producing excessive pressure when the engine is hot.
Having the starting oil pressure exceed 90 psi on start up with 20-50 oil is normal. It's the hot pressure you are looking for.
Remove the plunger and clean everything out again. Make sure that the seat is clean as well. Add a couple of washers or shims to your last spring, to raise the oil pressure a bit. 55 is too low.
I polish the plunger if it needs it. The ball should solve the problems provided that the bore and the seat are in good shape.
Having the oil pressure track RPM is not really a problem. What you are looking for is the maximum pressure, usually reached around 2000~2500 RPM.
MAX Oil pressure should be 60 psi HOT. No more, NO LESS. My engines run at 60~62 at 80~90 C oil temp (20w-50 Valvoline Racing). I have an oil cooler as the ambient here is often around 34C and higher during the summer. Hotter at the desert race track. In the winter, when it is cold, it often takes a while for the pressure to drop below 75 psi as the oil warms. Once the oil reaches coolant temp, the pressure settles down to 60 psi. A little extra pressure is OK, but you are wasting HP producing excessive pressure when the engine is hot.
Having the starting oil pressure exceed 90 psi on start up with 20-50 oil is normal. It's the hot pressure you are looking for.
Remove the plunger and clean everything out again. Make sure that the seat is clean as well. Add a couple of washers or shims to your last spring, to raise the oil pressure a bit. 55 is too low.
I polish the plunger if it needs it. The ball should solve the problems provided that the bore and the seat are in good shape.