I'm struggling to find a pair of front hubs for my build.
I have seen some alloy hubs, JLA Morris Minors, but they are quite a hit to the budget at £240 the pair, although to be fair that is fitted with new bearings, seal and new studs.
Anyone any experience of the alloy hubs? Or any suggestions where I might pick up a pair of standard hubs?
Front Hubs
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Front Hubs
Any breaker (especially one specializing in Spridgets) should be able to supply you with a set used of standard hubs. There are competition steel hubs available as well (Mini Mania has them here in the US, Check Peter May, MED or Frontline in the UK).
I would not bother with an aluminum hub. Our competition hubs here are all steel, and very light, if a light strong hub is what you want .Otherwise, the stock hubs work fine.
Or...
Just checked Moss UK catalog on my internet machine...
Stock Sprite/Midget 1275/1500 disc brake, steel disc wheel hubs... PN BTA 1254 ... £59.95 ea. Listed in their catalog online. Inexpensive enough.
Moss US site has them as well. PN 264 245 Hub, disc wheels $89.99 USD
That should solve your problem. I suspect that the Breaker should have the parts at half price. As it is, the new hubs are half the cost of the alloy parts, even if you include the studs, spacer and taper roller wheel bearings and seals. More reliable as well.
Studs separately. Press them in yourself.
Don't forget to get the spacer that goes between the bearings inside the hub. It is a major structural part of the stub axle as it is tight between the wheel bearings to take a portion of the load off the stub axle. The front wheel bearings are to be fitted with a specific torque to ensure integrity. Free rotation is adjusted using the shims.
If you want spline wire wheel hubs, they are available new from any of the usual Spridget parts sources, MWS wheels, and are reasonably priced.
Studs or rotor bolts are also available from the usual Spridget parts sources. Try Moss UK.
Hubs are not hard to find. Usually, they come off the donor car (if you have one). I guess that donors are getting to be as hard to find in the UK as they are here in the "States.
You can also get reconditioned disc brake spindles with new, fitted kingpins from many of the Spridget supplier for a reasonable cost on an exchange basis. Moss has those as well. Mini Mania has fully rebuilt competition spindles with fitted king pins for about $500 USD, exchange. These are excellent parts.
When you get the hubs, go for the Timken taper roller bearings for the front wheels. These are far superior to the standard ball bearings, and will greatly improve brake feel and modulation. More expensive, but worth every penny. Don't forget the spacer that goes between the bearings inside each hub, and shims for proper torque of the spindle nut.
One more thing. Make sure that your spindles have a good thread on the spindle for the nut. I have seen two cars here that came in with only the brake caliper holding the hub to the spindle as the spindle threads were damaged, or stripped, along with the nut.
If you are located in the US, you can try Victoria British, Moss Motors, Mini Mania, or you can just order from Moss UK. I bought my RHD "Fat Rack" from the UK site as the part was not offered here in the US. .
I would not bother with an aluminum hub. Our competition hubs here are all steel, and very light, if a light strong hub is what you want .Otherwise, the stock hubs work fine.
Or...
Just checked Moss UK catalog on my internet machine...
Stock Sprite/Midget 1275/1500 disc brake, steel disc wheel hubs... PN BTA 1254 ... £59.95 ea. Listed in their catalog online. Inexpensive enough.
Moss US site has them as well. PN 264 245 Hub, disc wheels $89.99 USD
That should solve your problem. I suspect that the Breaker should have the parts at half price. As it is, the new hubs are half the cost of the alloy parts, even if you include the studs, spacer and taper roller wheel bearings and seals. More reliable as well.
Studs separately. Press them in yourself.
Don't forget to get the spacer that goes between the bearings inside the hub. It is a major structural part of the stub axle as it is tight between the wheel bearings to take a portion of the load off the stub axle. The front wheel bearings are to be fitted with a specific torque to ensure integrity. Free rotation is adjusted using the shims.
If you want spline wire wheel hubs, they are available new from any of the usual Spridget parts sources, MWS wheels, and are reasonably priced.
Studs or rotor bolts are also available from the usual Spridget parts sources. Try Moss UK.
Hubs are not hard to find. Usually, they come off the donor car (if you have one). I guess that donors are getting to be as hard to find in the UK as they are here in the "States.
You can also get reconditioned disc brake spindles with new, fitted kingpins from many of the Spridget supplier for a reasonable cost on an exchange basis. Moss has those as well. Mini Mania has fully rebuilt competition spindles with fitted king pins for about $500 USD, exchange. These are excellent parts.
When you get the hubs, go for the Timken taper roller bearings for the front wheels. These are far superior to the standard ball bearings, and will greatly improve brake feel and modulation. More expensive, but worth every penny. Don't forget the spacer that goes between the bearings inside each hub, and shims for proper torque of the spindle nut.
One more thing. Make sure that your spindles have a good thread on the spindle for the nut. I have seen two cars here that came in with only the brake caliper holding the hub to the spindle as the spindle threads were damaged, or stripped, along with the nut.
If you are located in the US, you can try Victoria British, Moss Motors, Mini Mania, or you can just order from Moss UK. I bought my RHD "Fat Rack" from the UK site as the part was not offered here in the US. .
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erictharg
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:50 pm
Re: Front Hubs
I'd start with stock hubs. I know the ball bearings wear faster than taper rollers but you will still get several years wear out of them if you buy the right ones. once you are out there and want o spend more money by all means look for some ally hubs or taper roller brgs for the stock ones. Not a priority I'd suggest!
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Front Hubs
Just about the only real problem with the Westfield 11 is the brake feel. Some have blamed this on the master cylinder choice, others on the calipers.
My own experience with the ball bearings is that they allow too much run out after only a couple of thousand (make that a few hundred in many cases) miles. The end result is a brake pedal that was quoted in one of the UK magazines as "squishy, with hard bits, like stepping on a dead animal". And that was the FACTORY RHD press car in the UK.
That description was one that I had wished I had written myself... Brilliant, and completely accurate when it came to describing the brake feel on the W11s I had driven (LHD and RHD), and a perfect description as to what was going on in my own car.
I chased this problem in my LHD car for a couple of years, bleeding the brakes numerous times, rebuilding the master cylinder, changing the master cylinder for a larger size to increase pedal pressure, and strengthening the hanging pedal quadrant. Nothing worked. This problem also surfaced on the other W11s that I was working on.
The problem for me was that I was using the canyons for my daily commute, and the brakes didn't give any confidence, with a different pedal pressure and travel after every turn. I was not the only one to notice this, as other US builders/owners brought me their cars with the same vague brake feel problem.
The fix was found after replacing a set of stub axles with new parts, including the expensive taper bearings. Well, not really that expensive when the braking feel and modulation is considered. I went back to the original .75" master cylinder. It was perfect. The cost was far less than the screwing around that I was doing with the master cylinders, brake cylinders, caliper rebuilds and fabrication costs that lead nowhere... It was the silly ball bearings all along...
This also worked on the later cars with the tandem master cylinder as well. From mushy to precise, with just a change in wheel bearings. This on a fresh built car that had only 700 miles on new, factory spec ball bearings.
The fact is that getting a good quality set of ball bearings is not that much less expensive than a set of the Timken taper rollers. Once set up, they will actually last the life of the car, and the braking will be constant in feel and modulation. Believe me, an extra £45 is nothing when it comes to having confidence in the brake system.
Having built a few of these cars, and owning one for more than a decade, putting more than 60K miles on it, I can say that putting first quality parts on in the beginning is never a waste of time or money. The idea is to have a great car when you are finished, and minimal development or rebuilding to do. Too many W11s are not driven because of various problems with feel problems in the steering, braking and ride. Most builders are not really experienced enough in the development process, which is far more complicated than the build process. Putting in the right parts to start with makes for a very drivable, and enjoyable car. Immediate gratification, and not frustration.
With the difficulty of removing the inner races, and setting up the bearings in the first place (properly done with shims and a torque wrench), why waste all that time on a set of bearings that will not ensure consistent brake feel over even a short time frame? The car is so much better to drive with the taper Timkens that anything else is a waste of both time and money, not to mention the driving enjoyment of the car when it is finished. Why install a system with a short half life, if you can put in the right parts that will last far longer.
I know that there is a tendency to just get the cat together and running with minimal expense, only to have to take it apart to put in the right parts. Putting in the right parts in the beginning will ensure a far better experience, and will usually result in less money spent for a better result.
My own experience with the ball bearings is that they allow too much run out after only a couple of thousand (make that a few hundred in many cases) miles. The end result is a brake pedal that was quoted in one of the UK magazines as "squishy, with hard bits, like stepping on a dead animal". And that was the FACTORY RHD press car in the UK.
That description was one that I had wished I had written myself... Brilliant, and completely accurate when it came to describing the brake feel on the W11s I had driven (LHD and RHD), and a perfect description as to what was going on in my own car.
I chased this problem in my LHD car for a couple of years, bleeding the brakes numerous times, rebuilding the master cylinder, changing the master cylinder for a larger size to increase pedal pressure, and strengthening the hanging pedal quadrant. Nothing worked. This problem also surfaced on the other W11s that I was working on.
The problem for me was that I was using the canyons for my daily commute, and the brakes didn't give any confidence, with a different pedal pressure and travel after every turn. I was not the only one to notice this, as other US builders/owners brought me their cars with the same vague brake feel problem.
The fix was found after replacing a set of stub axles with new parts, including the expensive taper bearings. Well, not really that expensive when the braking feel and modulation is considered. I went back to the original .75" master cylinder. It was perfect. The cost was far less than the screwing around that I was doing with the master cylinders, brake cylinders, caliper rebuilds and fabrication costs that lead nowhere... It was the silly ball bearings all along...
This also worked on the later cars with the tandem master cylinder as well. From mushy to precise, with just a change in wheel bearings. This on a fresh built car that had only 700 miles on new, factory spec ball bearings.
The fact is that getting a good quality set of ball bearings is not that much less expensive than a set of the Timken taper rollers. Once set up, they will actually last the life of the car, and the braking will be constant in feel and modulation. Believe me, an extra £45 is nothing when it comes to having confidence in the brake system.
Having built a few of these cars, and owning one for more than a decade, putting more than 60K miles on it, I can say that putting first quality parts on in the beginning is never a waste of time or money. The idea is to have a great car when you are finished, and minimal development or rebuilding to do. Too many W11s are not driven because of various problems with feel problems in the steering, braking and ride. Most builders are not really experienced enough in the development process, which is far more complicated than the build process. Putting in the right parts to start with makes for a very drivable, and enjoyable car. Immediate gratification, and not frustration.
With the difficulty of removing the inner races, and setting up the bearings in the first place (properly done with shims and a torque wrench), why waste all that time on a set of bearings that will not ensure consistent brake feel over even a short time frame? The car is so much better to drive with the taper Timkens that anything else is a waste of both time and money, not to mention the driving enjoyment of the car when it is finished. Why install a system with a short half life, if you can put in the right parts that will last far longer.
I know that there is a tendency to just get the cat together and running with minimal expense, only to have to take it apart to put in the right parts. Putting in the right parts in the beginning will ensure a far better experience, and will usually result in less money spent for a better result.
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StephenH
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: Front Hubs
The perceived problem with brakes is irrelevant in my case. I've paid Westfield for the complete competition brake upgrade.
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StephenH
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: Front Hubs
No 2nd hand ones to be had. Andy Jennings says he is struggling to find them these days.
Moss have just had some new ones in stock these last few days. When I looked on their website last week they were still showing as "not currently available", but yesterday they had them, so a pair on its way to me along with bearing kits and grease caps.
So "the job's a goodun".
Moss have just had some new ones in stock these last few days. When I looked on their website last week they were still showing as "not currently available", but yesterday they had them, so a pair on its way to me along with bearing kits and grease caps.
So "the job's a goodun".
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wilksy
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:44 am
Re: Front Hubs
Stephen, I would be careful with the bearings that Moss are sending you they may not be the infamous face adjusted bearings that are required for the MG front hubs.
The correct bearings are available from here http://heritagecarparts.com/austin-heal ... spec-part/
and as you can see they are £40.00 a set (one side) so just be careful and you will need the bearing spacer for the correct loading.
The correct bearings are available from here http://heritagecarparts.com/austin-heal ... spec-part/
and as you can see they are £40.00 a set (one side) so just be careful and you will need the bearing spacer for the correct loading.
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Splat
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:12 am
Re: Front Hubs
^^^^^ this!
The Moss bearings are useless. Send them straight back and fit the face-adjusted ones. And what a pity that I've only just read this. I converted to ww hubs a couple of years ago, so I've a couple of pairs of standard hubs knocking about.....
The Moss bearings are useless. Send them straight back and fit the face-adjusted ones. And what a pity that I've only just read this. I converted to ww hubs a couple of years ago, so I've a couple of pairs of standard hubs knocking about.....
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Front Hubs
I agree. But my experience is that all the ball bearings are junk (and hardly anyone has the shims to properly adjust and torque them), even when properly set up and torqued to spec.
I get my Timkens from Speedwell Engineering here in California, and they come with the necessary shis and proper instructions. Expensive, but worth it.
I get my Timkens from Speedwell Engineering here in California, and they come with the necessary shis and proper instructions. Expensive, but worth it.
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StephenH
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: Front Hubs
Hello Wilksy and Splat. I've already ordered the wheel bearing kits before I saw either of your posts, and they have arrived this morning.
The bearing kits they have sent me include bearings supplied in turn by Global Supplies and Logistics (GSL) and have the initials "SCH" on them which my give a clue to the actual manufacturer. They appear to be of German make. Are these the ones you are warning me off? If so, what is the problem with them? Is it just that they don't last well, or is there a more serious potential problem? If it is simply that they tend to wear out quickly I will use them for now, having bought and paid for them, and then replace with something better if and when necessary.
The bearing kits they have sent me include bearings supplied in turn by Global Supplies and Logistics (GSL) and have the initials "SCH" on them which my give a clue to the actual manufacturer. They appear to be of German make. Are these the ones you are warning me off? If so, what is the problem with them? Is it just that they don't last well, or is there a more serious potential problem? If it is simply that they tend to wear out quickly I will use them for now, having bought and paid for them, and then replace with something better if and when necessary.